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Post by lonmark on Sept 20, 2023 12:06:21 GMT
So I wondering how much pvr loss and pvr gain for both Go-Ahead / Stagecoach if it go ahead with this planning.
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Post by ADH45258 on Sept 20, 2023 12:14:49 GMT
So I wondering how much pvr loss and pvr gain for both Go-Ahead / Stagecoach if it go ahead with this planning. Probably a minor increase for the B14. But for the R routes I assume the changes would take place when retendered?
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Post by ADH45258 on Sept 20, 2023 12:24:46 GMT
It does make the B14 even more convoluted though. Perhaps something could be done with the 492 to provide a more direct link between Orpington and Bexleyheath? The 51 and a change at Sidcup or Welling tends to be much quicker between Orpington and Bexleyheath anyway, and or course is the same fare with Hopper. Making the network simpler and more economical at the cost of making an already indirect link slightly more so seems a reasonable trade-off imo. I'm not sure there is actually much savings to be made from these changes. The B14/R6 changes makes some sense. But the R1/R2/R3 proposals don't seem to make any reductions on any significant stretches of road. Could probably just increase the R2 to 3bhp, leave the R1/R3 as they are and the results would be much the same. I do think the R network is worth looking at, but I'm not convinced these proposals really achieve much.
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Post by greenboy on Sept 20, 2023 12:35:28 GMT
The 51 and a change at Sidcup or Welling tends to be much quicker between Orpington and Bexleyheath anyway, and or course is the same fare with Hopper. Making the network simpler and more economical at the cost of making an already indirect link slightly more so seems a reasonable trade-off imo. I'm not sure there is actually much savings to be made from these changes. The B14/R6 changes makes some sense. But the R1/R2/R3 proposals don't seem to make any reductions on any significant stretches of road. Could probably just increase the R2 to 3bhp, leave the R1/R3 as they are and the results would be much the same. I do think the R network is worth looking at, but I'm not convinced these proposals really achieve much. My thoughts exactly, very underwhelming. A frequency increase to Biggin Hill which I don't think is needed, the obvious improvement would have been to extend the R1 from Grovelands to Foots Cray Tesco.
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Post by londonbuses on Sept 20, 2023 12:46:34 GMT
I'm not sure there is actually much savings to be made from these changes. It looks like these changes are a way of improving the bus network without spending extra, as the overall PVR of all the routes is very likely to be exactly the same as today (B14 +1, R1 +2, R2 -3, R3 +2, R6 -2). If it was solely about savings, then I don't think they would bother with any of it apart from the B14/R6 changes which in isolation would save one bus.
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Post by DT 11 on Sept 20, 2023 12:46:37 GMT
Overall I am not surprised about these changes being proposed however the R2 & R6 missing creates gaps in the R1-R11 Overall this proposal makes sense
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Post by VMH2537 on Sept 20, 2023 12:48:02 GMT
None of this helps ULEZ as none of these cross the border. However . They seem straight forward enough. Haven’t used any of these in a long long time. An ULEZ improvement doesn't always need to focus on cross-border connections. Improvements within the expanded boundary also needs investment if you want to try and support those affected within. The R1 extension and a frequency enchantment may offer a much more useful service alongside a new Sunday operation. I also personally hope more of these enchantments can take place on low-frequent routes if a business case justifies.
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Post by DT 11 on Sept 20, 2023 12:55:13 GMT
The 51 and a change at Sidcup or Welling tends to be much quicker between Orpington and Bexleyheath anyway, and or course is the same fare with Hopper. Making the network simpler and more economical at the cost of making an already indirect link slightly more so seems a reasonable trade-off imo. I'm not sure there is actually much savings to be made from these changes. The B14/R6 changes makes some sense. But the R1/R2/R3 proposals don't seem to make any reductions on any significant stretches of road. Could probably just increase the R2 to 3bhp, leave the R1/R3 as they are and the results would be much the same. I do think the R network is worth looking at, but I'm not convinced these proposals really achieve much. The B14 I believe is covered by the R11 which is now a high frequency route. R6 that is two buses gone. R1 I imagine the PVR will go up by two or even 0 as the route is being removed from the current section… R3 PVR +1. So overall from this in reality -2 or -4 PVR buses withdrawn from service if this comes to reality
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Post by Paul on Sept 20, 2023 13:04:37 GMT
This all feels a little like change for changes sake. I don’t really see the benefit for anyone. The R1 becomes a fairly lengthy route and will get caught in traffic along Crofton Road which may impact on the service to Grovelands. It’s been mentioned that the opportunity to serve Foots Cray Tesco again from St Paul’s Cray hasn’t been taken which is unfortunate
Adding the St Mary Cray section of the R6 onto the B14 seems odd given the B14 is already a lengthy route. Would it not make more sense to simply extend the R2 over the R6 and not bother with the R1 change?
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Post by rugbyref on Sept 20, 2023 13:16:27 GMT
As someone who relies on the R1 from Glentrammon to get to Orpington Station, these propsals are appalling! We have only recently had a change to open up Tower Road to buses, and now they ditch those stops?!
I will be objecting most vehemently about destroying our R1 route. It was bad enough going 4bph to 3 bph, now nil bph to Orpington Station?!!
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Post by DT 11 on Sept 20, 2023 13:30:42 GMT
As someone who relies on the R1 from Glentrammon to get to Orpington Station, these propsals are appalling! We have only recently had a change to open up Tower Road to buses, and now they ditch those stops?! I will be objecting most vehemently about destroying our R1 route. It was bad enough going 4bph to 3 bph, now nil bph to Orpington Station?!! Looking at the proposed route the R3 indirectly replaces the R1 including Tower Road. R3 runs every 20 minutes like the R1… or maybe I have read it wrong but appears to me no loss of links. The Crossed out R3 on the Map appears to be the Orpington Station terminus.
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Post by lonmark on Sept 20, 2023 13:40:18 GMT
As someone who relies on the R1 from Glentrammon to get to Orpington Station, these propsals are appalling! We have only recently had a change to open up Tower Road to buses, and now they ditch those stops?! I will be objecting most vehemently about destroying our R1 route. It was bad enough going 4bph to 3 bph, now nil bph to Orpington Station?!! you can find this easy one for you and your someone you know. click hereso R3 will be extended to Green Street Green via R1 as same.
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Post by vjaska on Sept 20, 2023 13:41:12 GMT
This all feels a little like change for changes sake. I don’t really see the benefit for anyone. The R1 becomes a fairly lengthy route and will get caught in traffic along Crofton Road which may impact on the service to Grovelands. It’s been mentioned that the opportunity to serve Foots Cray Tesco again from St Paul’s Cray hasn’t been taken which is unfortunate Adding the St Mary Cray section of the R6 onto the B14 seems odd given the B14 is already a lengthy route. Would it not make more sense to simply extend the R2 over the R6 and not bother with the R1 change? Completely agree with all the above, changes for changes sake really does sum it up to me.
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Post by vjaska on Sept 20, 2023 13:45:30 GMT
yeah but Tesco is still in Orpington and Morrison in Sidcup. so B14/R11 can still service there nearby. So more choice! Surely more choice would be serving the Tesco that it previously served in addition to the two supermarkets you mentioned? I don't think it's beyond reason that people at the top end of the R11 can't have one direct link to the nearby Foots Cray Tesco rather than having to travel all the way into Orpington to access one. We want people to use transport yet removing such a link goes right against that.
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Post by rugbyref on Sept 20, 2023 14:17:33 GMT
I mis-read the map initially. Ignore my comment about losing direct link to Orpington Station. However the relibility and timekeeping at the Green Street Green end of R3 will suffer from the heavy traffic and constant roadworks around Petts Wood.
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