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Post by TA1 on Apr 16, 2016 3:38:48 GMT
Overhead Line Electricfication, SR use the rubbish DC Power Source (third rail), the good side of the river use AC (OHL)'s
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Post by ServerKing on Apr 16, 2016 5:52:23 GMT
Sorry, abbreviations... nothing to do with Salsa dancing or anything Latino... also known as OverHead Line Equipment / Catenery / 'Knitting' - here's an early example from Manchester I assume Arriva will paint it into more modern colours once the new Northern franchise starts?
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Post by snowman on Apr 16, 2016 7:04:11 GMT
The idea of all this regenerative braking that's installed on desiro, 459 and 455's when finished converting is to return power back to the juice rail. OHLE is a plan far down the line but I think focus is on a lot more urgently required projects such as extended platforms at Waterloo and the reopening full time of the Waterloo international platforms, plus the 455 conversions and the 707's etc. 455/456's won't run on Hounslow loop anymore because a small handful of platforms will not be extended (syon lane, isleworth) so 10 cars will be incompatible. No plans to put AC motors in 456's but according to the paperwork I have these AC 455's will be fully compatible with current 456's so I guess no need to modify. I understand the Waterloo works platforms 1-4 are scheduled for a 10 day blockage in August 2017 . It is going to be advertised soon to encourage commuters to choose to take their summer holidays that week as there will be virtually no suburban service on the lines via Wimbledon. It includes widening the track bed on approach bridge (Westminster bridge Road) so that will probably be shut for about a month to allow a massive crane to lift in sections. Isleworth platforms weren't lengthened to save money, it requires extensions across St John's road bridge, it is fairly easy to do technically (a similar extension over a road was done at Kingston), but costs more than simple extension. From memory Syon Lane platforms were longer than 8 car anyway. When they first arrived on SWT the 456s could not work with the 455s, but they were modified during the refurb. The 455s were built with the old design (but reliable) English Electric 507 motor which had been used since the 1950s (1940s?). Apart from the last five which were built with early electronic control, they used electromechanical camshaft control gear. Obviously electronics has moved on and a simple microprocessor controlled gate turn off thyristor can now be used that can handle the power of a train motor, although you need slightly more complicated electronics to produce variable frequency 3 phase AC from a DC supply. AC motors are about 3 times as powerful for same weight as a DC motor and the old ee507 was rated at 250HP (equivalent to 186Kw). I don't know the rating of the new motors but potentially could be upto about half megawatt each if they are physically same size. More realistically probably will be about 300Kw each. Remember motors are given 3 ratings (5 minutes, 1 hour, continuous and is effectively how hot you are prepared to let them get), in suburban use somewhere between first two ratings is effectively what can be used.
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Post by John tuthill on Apr 16, 2016 8:50:17 GMT
Sorry, abbreviations... nothing to do with Salsa dancing or anything Latino... also known as OverHead Line Equipment / Catenery / 'Knitting' - here's an early example from Manchester I assume Arriva will paint it into more modern colours once the new Northern franchise starts? And an even older one on the LBSC at Wandsworth Road Attachment Deleted
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Post by twobellstogo on Apr 20, 2016 20:21:12 GMT
Why are there pictures of yellow flowers on the sides of some SWT class 455s at the moment, anyone know?
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Post by thewintersoldier on Apr 21, 2016 6:21:04 GMT
Why are there pictures of yellow flowers on the sides of some SWT class 455s at the moment, anyone know? Units that have been converted to AC Motors.
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Post by John tuthill on Apr 21, 2016 9:25:53 GMT
Why are there pictures of yellow flowers on the sides of some SWT class 455s at the moment, anyone know? Units that have been converted to AC Motors. If you have DC on the third rail, it must mean that there's a static invertor to convert the DC to AC?
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Post by thewintersoldier on Apr 21, 2016 13:43:56 GMT
Units that have been converted to AC Motors. If you have DC on the third rail, it must mean that there's a static invertor to convert the DC to AC? That's correct. I'll be able to provide more info when I finally drive one. I would have thought DI's would have been trained up first but never mind I'll wait my turn. I'm not impatient at all.... Honest....
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Post by John tuthill on Apr 21, 2016 14:40:50 GMT
If you have DC on the third rail, it must mean that there's a static invertor to convert the DC to AC? That's correct. I'll be able to provide more info when I finally drive one. I would have thought DI's would have been trained up first but never mind I'll wait my turn. I'm not impatient at all.... Honest.... It will be interesting to note your 'before & after' observations re acceleration/deceleration, response and noise levels, both empty and full, all the best.
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Post by snowman on Apr 21, 2016 14:51:44 GMT
Units that have been converted to AC Motors. If you have DC on the third rail, it must mean that there's a static invertor to convert the DC to AC? Yes in the form of a set of IGBT (Insulated Gate Bipolar Transistors). This replaces the old camshaft control and resistor banks (which acted like electric bar fires, wastefully heating the outside air). However unlike a simple invertor, these can effectively be reversed to turn the AC into DC during regenerative braking. The IGBTs are obviously big enough to handle the traction voltage and amps, but the gates are connected to a normal low voltage electronic circuit with a microprocessor. Vossloh Kiepe aim to be able to refit a train in 6 days, once installation learning curve has passed.
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Post by John tuthill on Apr 21, 2016 14:54:54 GMT
If you have DC on the third rail, it must mean that there's a static invertor to convert the DC to AC? Yes in the form of a set of IGBT (Insulated Gate Bipolar Transistors). This replaces the old camshaft control and resistor banks (which acted like electric bar fires, wastefully heating the outside air). However unlike a simple invertor, these can effectively be reversed to turn the AC into DC during regenerative braking. The IGBTs are obviously big enough to handle the traction voltage and amps, but the gates are connected to a normal low voltage electronic circuit with a microprocessor. Vossloh Kiepe aim to be able to refit a train in 6 days, once installation learning curve has passed. Thank you for the info
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Post by Hassaan on Apr 24, 2016 17:09:13 GMT
The 455's are being converted to AC Motors, fitted with more modern acceleration and braking To enable them to last many more years. I hope to be involved in the training of these. So will keep you posted if anyone wants to have a more technical explanation of what's actually happening to them. 707 training is due to begin at some point in October too. I assume this will be training school and instructor's first. Then drivers, course is 4 days, so it's not a conversion from your standard desiro. At some point the section between Basingstoke and Southampton is getting OHLE, so we could be seeing pantographs fitted in the roof wells of some of the 450s and 444s They will see how the South West Main Line copes with that before extending the wires towards Waterloo. 3rd rail is inefficient as so much power is lost and I think is at capacity due to more power hungry trains always drawing current. They want to rip it up and convert to overhead but I don't know where the money will come from... There's talk of electrification in Reigate with overhead to get rid of the diesels between Guildford and Reading, but thats on the rail forum... 455s and 456s dont come out to play anymore on the Hounslow Loop, but I guess there's no plan to put AC motors in the 456s? The idea of all this regenerative braking that's installed on desiro, 459 and 455's when finished converting is to return power back to the juice rail. OHLE is a plan far down the line but I think focus is on a lot more urgently required projects such as extended platforms at Waterloo and the reopening full time of the Waterloo international platforms, plus the 455 conversions and the 707's etc. 455/456's won't run on Hounslow loop anymore because a small handful of platforms will not be extended (syon lane, isleworth) so 10 cars will be incompatible. No plans to put AC motors in 456's but according to the paperwork I have these AC 455's will be fully compatible with current 456's so I guess no need to modify. In the current timetable (December 2015) there are still services on the Hounslow Loop that use 455: Weekdays (all 455+455, 8 cars) 2S10 0633 Staines to London Waterloo (Hounslow 0646, Brentford 0654) 2R15 0843 London Waterloo to London Waterloo (Hounslow 0931, Brentford 0939) 2R17 0915 London Waterloo to London Waterloo (Hounslow 1001, Brentford 1009) 2R55 1845 London Waterloo to London Waterloo (Hounslow 1931, Brentford 1939) Sundays (all 455+455, 8 cars) Any service to/from Kingston, as 8 cars formed using any other stock do not fit in the bay platform at Kingston.
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Post by thewintersoldier on Apr 24, 2016 17:18:50 GMT
At some point the section between Basingstoke and Southampton is getting OHLE, so we could be seeing pantographs fitted in the roof wells of some of the 450s and 444s They will see how the South West Main Line copes with that before extending the wires towards Waterloo. 3rd rail is inefficient as so much power is lost and I think is at capacity due to more power hungry trains always drawing current. They want to rip it up and convert to overhead but I don't know where the money will come from... There's talk of electrification in Reigate with overhead to get rid of the diesels between Guildford and Reading, but thats on the rail forum... 455s and 456s dont come out to play anymore on the Hounslow Loop, but I guess there's no plan to put AC motors in the 456s? The idea of all this regenerative braking that's installed on desiro, 459 and 455's when finished converting is to return power back to the juice rail. OHLE is a plan far down the line but I think focus is on a lot more urgently required projects such as extended platforms at Waterloo and the reopening full time of the Waterloo international platforms, plus the 455 conversions and the 707's etc. 455/456's won't run on Hounslow loop anymore because a small handful of platforms will not be extended (syon lane, isleworth) so 10 cars will be incompatible. No plans to put AC motors in 456's but according to the paperwork I have these AC 455's will be fully compatible with current 456's so I guess no need to modify. In the current timetable (December 2015) there are still services on the Hounslow Loop that use 455: Weekdays (all 455+455, 8 cars) 2S10 0633 Staines to London Waterloo (Hounslow 0646, Brentford 0654) 2R15 0843 London Waterloo to London Waterloo (Hounslow 0931, Brentford 0939) 2R17 0915 London Waterloo to London Waterloo (Hounslow 1001, Brentford 1009) 2R55 1845 London Waterloo to London Waterloo (Hounslow 1931, Brentford 1939) Sundays (all 455+455, 8 cars) Any service to/from Kingston, as 8 cars formed using any other stock do not fit in the bay platform at Kingston. 8 car desiro fit in Kingston bay. It's a bit tight....
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Post by Hassaan on Apr 24, 2016 17:51:35 GMT
In the current timetable (December 2015) there are still services on the Hounslow Loop that use 455: Weekdays (all 455+455, 8 cars) 2S10 0633 Staines to London Waterloo (Hounslow 0646, Brentford 0654) 2R15 0843 London Waterloo to London Waterloo (Hounslow 0931, Brentford 0939) 2R17 0915 London Waterloo to London Waterloo (Hounslow 1001, Brentford 1009) 2R55 1845 London Waterloo to London Waterloo (Hounslow 1931, Brentford 1939) Sundays (all 455+455, 8 cars) Any service to/from Kingston, as 8 cars formed using any other stock do not fit in the bay platform at Kingston. 8 car desiro fit in Kingston bay. It's a bit tight.... Touching the buffer stops?
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Post by thewintersoldier on Apr 24, 2016 21:24:39 GMT
8 car desiro fit in Kingston bay. It's a bit tight.... Touching the buffer stops? Not that tight!
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