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Post by greeny253 on Dec 22, 2007 11:38:45 GMT
Nothing about how TfL run their buses will do anything about safety. Whether you have conductors or just the driver there will always be problems on the buses - though admittedly the conductor can do something about most things. What we need to do is get more police officers out there on the transport as a deterrent but the only way to do this is to reduce the amount of paperwork they have to do after an arrest or incident and the Home Office are the people that can sort this out. As soon as our police are not spending hours doing paperwork then there will be more manpower to deal with problems on our buses - Mike.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2007 12:24:45 GMT
While the problem is dire and everyone is angry about it, lets still keep our arguments rational. And please bare in mind the possible kind of people reading these posts, as some might be offended by some of them. And if any individual feels justified in doing this, then please provide credible statistical evidence.
What we must make clear is that while we are taking measures against violence in public, we must not jeopardise the majority of law abiding passengers.
Again, buses might not be too safe at certain times of day, but asking the majority of daytime passengers to pay more for safety improvements they might not even benefit from and expecting them to stay on buses and attracting more when traffic is at its height is simply not realistic. A balance must be struck and we have no choice but to acknowledge the fact that there are no overnight solutions to things. We can, however, reverse the trend (perhaps a little slowly first), by offering carrots, as well as sticks.
It's no good further marginalise those who, through faults of their own and/or of the society, are already marginalised - we also have to create incentives for people to do the right things.
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Post by gal06 on Dec 22, 2007 15:17:21 GMT
Im beginning to become convinced that Steve and NCT are not bus users at all, but TfL spokesman who are trying to defend wastage right across the board that could be better used om trying to save passengers lives.
Mate I couldnt really give a monkeys who is offended, Im not a politically correct machine like you lot are. I dont just say all the right things to make live easier for myself like you seem to. I happen to think whats happening out there is frightening and would like it to stop if its ok with you guys and Livingstone, not just watch what I say incase the scum that are terminating lives get offended! I hope they are!
I didnt say which type of immigrant was to blame the most, all I know is lots of problems stem on buses when 1 set of people are sitting on the back seat of a double-decker and they are met by a different gang who are from a different culture. This happened last week when a group of Eastern European passengers boarded a 5 in East Ham and were abused and taughted by a group of black females for being foreign scum.
To be fair, if they had reacted and said anything, they would have been on a race charge and all hell would have broken loose on the top-deck.
OK, if a second person on the bus is so expensive, impractical and a stupid idea, how come all London buses used to have a conductor on them? Im sure the fares werent as high as they are now.
I cant believe it can be suggested that ibus is not poo! Yes, it might be ok if it actually worked and we had the cash spare to pay for it, but it isnt and we dont.
Quite honestly, is this money not just going to Ken and his pen-pusher mates like Bob Kiley and O'Toole who have just wasted millions and millions.
Amazing defence lads. - Gareth.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2007 22:23:57 GMT
Gareth, you flatter me. How can I be a TfL spokesman when I'm living in Nottingham? I am a bus user, and have, on a number of occasions, used the 8 and the 25 in the East End after dark. I do not travel on London's buses as regularly as I wish, but speaking from experience I found these journeys quite pleasant. That is not to say however that I am discrediting your experience in any way.
I have never said that I disagree in principle with putting a second person on a bus. The fact is simply I do not know the sums. It might well be that if we target routes and journeys effectively such problems can be dramatically improved without substantial cost. If costs are high, then passengers, who are also tax-payers may not support this programme, as they are the only people from whom the money would come. Do not think that money goes into the government from the heavens. There is also the issue of the safety of the guard/conductor him/herself to consider - unlike the driver who is able to lock him/herself in their cab, or the passenger who usually only spends 1 hour on a bus at a time, the conductor/guard is exposed to all sorts for the whole day. Or it might be that conductors will be very effective. We just don't know.
I do want you to know however that I do support the idea of having Routemasters back onto a handful of busy central London routes.
When I say be careful who might be offended, maybe it is because I am unhappy about everyone tarred with the same brush.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2007 13:12:56 GMT
Steve the alternative is that the roads become log-jamed with cars again as people feel safer behind the wheel than they do on the bus. That prat Livingstone has given hooligans free tickets and spongers half price travel yet we cant fund a security guard on the bus. Fantastic. - Gareth. Yes, Livingstone has ruined public transport in London for the majority by giving free travel. I have always been a supporter of Red Ken in a general sense as I am a Labour man through and through, but Ken should be ousted at the next election. However, barmy Boris is NOT an acceptable alternative. Maybe I should stand? ;D ;D ;D
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2007 13:16:19 GMT
Ask any right thinking passenger and they will tell you they would be happy to pay a bit more for safety. Well on every occasion where Council Tax payers have been asked to voted for 3 different levels of service for 3 different Council tax increases, they have always plumped for the cheapest - i.e. they want the best level of service as possible as long as it does not hit their pockets. There would be uproar if price increase like you suggested were even considered. London's bus fares are very cheap and good value for money, an all day bus is the best value I could think of for any form of Transport! A 50% increase in all London's fares, inc introducing a flat 50p child fare would be quite reasonable in my opinion. Once outside London the public are stung for a more realistic fare - so why not in London? Example: Route 84 New Barnet to St Albans £3.80 single or £5.65 return.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2007 13:23:39 GMT
Nothing about how TfL run their buses will do anything about safety. Whether you have conductors or just the driver there will always be problems on the buses - though admittedly the conductor can do something about most things. What we need to do is get more police officers out there on the transport as a deterrent but the only way to do this is to reduce the amount of paperwork they have to do after an arrest or incident and the Home Office are the people that can sort this out. As soon as our police are not spending hours doing paperwork then there will be more manpower to deal with problems on our buses - Mike. Even with a condutcor on board, you cant expect him/her to intervene and put their own safety at risk. If I was a conductor and someone was waving a knife about I'd be off the platform as fast as anyone else! Putting plastic police or even real police on every bus of course is not practicle, but ibus is supposed to address some of these problems as soon as a driver hits the code red button on the radio the internal CCTV is supoosed to beocme live so centrecomm can monitor events. What is needed is a larger police presence (preverably real police not plastic ones) on the streets and mobile in cars and on bikes so that they can get to a bus within a matter of a couple of minutes
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Post by Swadbus on Dec 23, 2007 16:57:36 GMT
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Post by gal06 on Dec 23, 2007 17:05:41 GMT
See what I mean, its just all getting out of control. Im sorry, but something has to be done. We can no longer brush it under the carpet. I will vote for whatever mayor promises to tackle this issue. - Gareth.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2007 17:43:54 GMT
Regarding the post above about police time being used up doing reports , i was involved in a nasty RTA about 3 weeks ago with my bus extensively damaged and when the police came to get take my statement etc. they were taking all details on a PDA instead of a notebook which took 3 times as long , yes they just download the file when they get back to their station but does this save any time?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2007 14:33:26 GMT
Talking first hand, I know its not a bus, and Im sure I've said it before, but... I got on a train once at Streatham Common, at 21:44, and got mugged at knifepoint for my phone and my wallet by 2 boys... even after I'd given them all I had, the WHITE boy said to the BLACK boy (read the end, no race argument) "stab him in his face anyway", thankfully he spared me a scar for life... but if he had done it, what would the benefit be? I had nothing left apart from a beating heart and clothes? I shouldn't have to feel thankful that I was allowed to travel on a train, with a valid ticket, without being stabbed to death, it should be a right to feel safe and travel anytime of day (or night), on any form of Public Transport. In todays society, unfortunantely, that is not possible. I got off at Balham, went into the Underground station supervisors office, called BTP, waited an hour for them to come, and was told that "due to the train I travelled on, which had no cameras, and insufficient evidence, nothing could be done"... I remember the train very clearly, I'm sure some of you will know what Im talking about. The 1st 4 carriages were in Network Southeast Livery (so you can guess the age), and the last 4 were in new Southern livery. Just my luck that the part that I travelled in (Network southeast)... had no cameras, yet the other part did I believe. My reason for mentioning the colours of the boys, is that, alot of people (and I admit it, myself included) will feel more threatened when 5 black boys get on a bus, as opposed to 5 chinese boys, or 5 indian boys. The reason for this, speaking as an 18 year old mixed race person brough up around these kind of people, is the way in which alot of young black men are portrayed in the media, the area's in which a majority of them live, the trends they feel "inspired" to follow and the lack of government funding for alternative places for them to 'hang out'. I am in no way defending these people, and I know that they deliberately dress intimidating to scare people, to make themselves feel big, to make themselves feel important, because they know deep down thet they infact, have no 'real' life, no job, no loving family and no higher goals than "whats the best phone I can steal". I believe that what a person does, is through choice, and cannot be blamed on past experience or upbringing, but a persons ability to say "no" to gun crime, mugging & robbery, is dependant on the way in which the person feels towards the country, the people, and the authorities. My point could be proven by sending a young male to Jamaica, or Africa, and telling them to mug someone on a bus there. I bet you next months wages that they would kindly decline. Moral? Britain is too soft.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2007 16:04:05 GMT
You (not directed at anyone in particular) might not be liking what I say here, but things like CCTV are useful, but only provided they are working and used. Perhaps there is a case of employing security guards on selected routes of public transport after dark.
The government seriously needs to address this problem. It is not just a question of spending - there needs to be created a culture. I know this sounds nanny-state, but schools and media need to do a lot more to encourage appropriate behavour, instead of criticising what's bad all the time.
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Post by gal06 on Dec 25, 2007 16:46:10 GMT
I agree with minijay, he is totally right and put the point across better than I did.
Its not only feeling humiliated that he got mugged and lost his stuff, its the mental damage it does to a person. They will never feel safe using transport again.
The other option open to us is to have a bus "hit team" consisting of about 6-8 British Transport police that pull buses over at random in the evening and search the bus. Anyone on the bus with hoods, loud music playing etc is to be taken off the bus and fully searched. It doesnt matter what colour or religion you are, if you got your hood up, smoking, in a gang or have the music going loud, your off and searched.
This team must be big enough to deal with a gang, and big enough to have officers blocking up 2 doors on a duel door vehicle and 3 on a bendy-bus to stop people that need searching from getting off.
I bet you that if this happened, there would be so many arress, so many potential muggers or knife wealding criminals caught, that it may just make travelling a bit more safe with criminals weary of the bus being raded by these teams with it impossible to escape!
Also, it would have the left-wing politically correct up in arms. Those useless idiots that love criminal rights! Fantastic! - Gareth.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2007 17:21:04 GMT
The other option open to us is to have a bus "hit team" consisting of about 6-8 British Transport police that pull buses over at random in the evening and search the bus. Anyone on the bus with hoods, loud music playing etc is to be taken off the bus and fully searched. It doesnt matter what colour or religion you are, if you got your hood up, smoking, in a gang or have the music going loud, your off and searched. This team must be big enough to deal with a gang, and big enough to have officers blocking up 2 doors on a duel door vehicle and 3 on a bendy-bus to stop people that need searching from getting off. I bet you that if this happened, there would be so many arress, so many potential muggers or knife wealding criminals caught, that it may just make travelling a bit more safe with criminals weary of the bus being raded by these teams with it impossible to escape! This I agree with. They had better be plain clothed though, as otherwise those people might just get off the bus as the hit team are getting on.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2007 21:37:01 GMT
Steve the alternative is that the roads become log-jamed with cars again as people feel safer behind the wheel than they do on the bus. That prat Livingstone has given hooligans free tickets and spongers half price travel yet we cant fund a security guard on the bus. Fantastic. - Gareth. Please don't exaggerate things. For the vast vast majority of people, buses are pretty safe for the vast majority of times. Being annoyed by others on buses might be common place but life threatening situations are very, very rare. I can't personally see the public being prepared for an 80% fares increase just to minimise superficial annoyance. I have travelled on the 8 and 25 in late evenings on a number of times and I am yet to encounter a situation I really don't want to be in. I dont think anyone wishes to exagerate things. The concern thouh is that crime on public transport is escalating out of control and nothing is really being done about it. The level of crime and its year on year increase can easily be confirmed from published data. These figure probably considerably understate it as many people will not report incidents due to the police & TfL not really being interested in taking any action. The police & Tfl will as well not report incidents where they decide to take no action which is quite frequent. How much the crime levels are understated depends on whose estimates you belive. No one is suggesting that the majority of people will be affected by crime, well at least at present but the figure is moving relentlessly upwards. The real difficulty is establishing the current figure as so much spin and doctoring of the data goes on.
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