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Post by snoggle on Mar 1, 2017 13:21:32 GMT
The papers for the 1st Investment and Programme Cttee panel meeting are now up. It includes a paper giving an update on the procurement of new DLR Rolling Stock. content.tfl.gov.uk/08-dlr-rolling-stock.pdfThe scope is 43 new "walk through" trains - 33 for straight fleet replacement and 10 for growth. Depot modifications at Beckton are also needed. Seems the B90/92 trains are at the end of their life and are suffering serious defects with poor levels of reliability. There would also be further contract options for more trains to cater for further demand growth / extension to Thamesmead. First new train would arrive in 2022 and last in 2024. Looking at the risk section it seems the possibility of decking over part of Beckton depot is being considered and there may be a combined DLR and bus depot there! Interestingly TfL are proposing the use of a finance lease to defer the capital cost impact of the new trains until the next business plan period. There is also an interesting Appendix 3 to the paper showing possible service expansion options and the numbers of extra trains required.
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Post by snowman on Mar 1, 2017 13:51:56 GMT
The papers for the 1st Investment and Programme Cttee panel meeting are now up. It includes a paper giving an update on the procurement of new DLR Rolling Stock. content.tfl.gov.uk/08-dlr-rolling-stock.pdfThe scope is 43 new "walk through" trains - 33 for straight fleet replacement and 10 for growth. Depot modifications at Beckton are also needed. Seems the B90/92 trains are at the end of their life and are suffering serious defects with poor levels of reliability. There would also be further contract options for more trains to cater for further demand growth / extension to Thamesmead. First new train would arrive in 2022 and last in 2024. Looking at the risk section it seems the possibility of decking over part of Beckton depot is being considered and there may be a combined DLR and bus depot there! Interestingly TfL are proposing the use of a finance lease to defer the capital cost impact of the new trains until the next business plan period. There is also an interesting Appendix 3 to the paper showing possible service expansion options and the numbers of extra trains required. I do hate it when a report is muddled, it's bad enough when investment is mixed with replacement But really to make statements saying the 23 B90 trains from 1991 and the 47 B92 trains from 1993-95 have a 25 year design life, so 33 of them need replacing in 2022-2024 is one of the most muddled reasons I have ever seen written down. If it's to expensive to upgrade them (the justification for not upgrading) then why is it just 33 replacements. (I know 21 of the 70 replaced the original fleet, but that leaves 49 not 33) Reasoning doesn't make a lot of sence to me.
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Post by astock5000 on Mar 1, 2017 16:59:45 GMT
I do hate it when a report is muddled, it's bad enough when investment is mixed with replacement But really to make statements saying the 23 B90 trains from 1991 and the 47 B92 trains from 1993-95 have a 25 year design life, so 33 of them need replacing in 2022-2024 is one of the most muddled reasons I have ever seen written down. If it's to expensive to upgrade them (the justification for not upgrading) then why is it just 33 replacements. (I know 21 of the 70 replaced the original fleet, but that leaves 49 not 33) Reasoning doesn't make a lot of sence to me. Each new train will be equivalent in length to three of the current ones. It isn't particularly clear in that document but if I understand this correctly these appear to be replacements for the 24 units of B2K stock as well. 33 new trains would otherwise be too many just for replacement of the 70 B90/B92s as many operate in 3-unit formations, and also that the stock to be replaced is stated as making up two-thirds of the fleet - the total fleet is 149 units so 70 would be just under half. The new stock for replacement is therefore equivalent to 99 of the current fleet, and would actually be replacing 94. This would also allow a few more services to be operated by longer trains (either a new train or three B2007s instead of two of any of the existing stock).
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Post by ThinLizzy on Mar 1, 2017 17:02:15 GMT
I haven't had chance to read the document in full details, however, there are 95 B92 vehicles that will be replaced by 33 "B2020 stock" including the 22 that were delivered in 2002/3.
The main challenge with the delivery of the new stock, or "New Train For Docklands (NTfD)" is the expansion of Beckton Depot whilst keeping it operational whilst that expansion takes place.
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Post by snowman on Mar 2, 2017 9:46:27 GMT
Thanks for the clarity, it does indeed refer to B90 and B92 as LRVs, but the replacement as trains However it does state the 33 trains are replacements for B90 and B92 without mentioning B2K (perhaps author was confused)
Re-reading it, it does appear that currently trains need to be split into LRVs for maintenance, and this is accelerating coupler problems. Consequently the depot needs to be altered to enable a whole train to be worked on at once, hence the expensive depot reorganisation.
Looks like the new trains will be walk through with no intermediate cabs, that should save some money as will only need a third of signalling and driving equipment. The downside however is a failure puts whole train out of service rather than one LRV (third of a train)
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Post by ThinLizzy on Mar 2, 2017 10:46:26 GMT
Thanks for the clarity, it does indeed refer to B90 and B92 as LRVs, but the replacement as trains However it does state the 33 trains are replacements for B90 and B92 without mentioning B2K (perhaps author was confused) Re-reading it, it does appear that currently trains need to be split into LRVs for maintenance, and this is accelerating coupler problems. Consequently the depot needs to be altered to enable a whole train to be worked on at once, hence the expensive depot reorganisation. Looks like the new trains will be walk through with no intermediate cabs, that should save some money as will only need a third of signalling and driving equipment. The downside however is a failure puts whole train out of service rather than one LRV (third of a train) The B2K vehicles are internally referred to as the 'B92' fleet as they were, basically, exactly the same vehicles built 10 years later. The new trains will be walk through with driving consoles at either end. The new vehicles will have couplers but these will be purely for emergency/rescue use only (similar to HSTs etc) The current fleet is split into single units for maintenance purposes, although the maintenance sheds at Beckton have been extended to accommodate 90m long trains (either as one big unit or 3 vehicles coupled.) The expansion of the depot is for additional berthing roads to accommodate the newly expanded fleet- Poplar depot will still be operational although certain sidings at Poplar cannot accommodate 90m trains, and due to the limited amount of space and surrounding infrastructure cannot be extended. Hope this information is useful :-)
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on May 17, 2017 13:48:36 GMT
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Post by routew15 on May 17, 2017 14:20:14 GMT
USB points are interesting for a metro service, is there really an excuse for other modes of transport not having this in there specifications. Even more interesting - 30 years of DLR! hoping they release 30 year booklet like they did for the 20th anniversary (which I think I still have somewhere)
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Post by ThinLizzy on May 17, 2017 16:14:42 GMT
USB points are interesting for a metro service, is there really an excuse for other modes of transport not having this in there specifications. Even more interesting - 30 years of DLR! hoping they release 30 year booklet like they did for the 20th anniversary (which I think I still have somewhere) I'm not sure about a 30th anniversary booklet but look out for a special logo popping up over the next few weeks.
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Post by snoggle on Nov 17, 2017 16:23:06 GMT
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Post by snowman on Nov 19, 2017 9:10:49 GMT
Having looked back through some investment papers, it appears the trains will be leased or rented, except confusingly it appears that TfL intends to buy them at some unspecified date in the future when it can afford them. This raises two points, TfL is blatantly misleading when it refers to Investing in replacement trains, as someone else is investing in them. Secondly it is wrong to state it is investing in replacement trains, as it isn't. If you replace something you own, by something borrowed, you are selling off the family silver, or in more commercial lingo, asset stripping. To spin asset stripping as investment is unforgivable. It really annoys me when routine replacement of life expired assets is headlined as investment, as that implies an upgrade/enhancement, instead of repair or replacement. I suspect that leasing divisions of banks will be having a good laugh at this, offering cheap lease for initial years, but a steadily increasing purchase option. As an example each year the lease cost is a £1, but each extra year the purchase price only falls 60p so longer you lease it, the higher the total cost gets. Having calculated that TfL can't suddenly find hundreds of millions to buy the fleet outright in a few years time.
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Post by snoggle on Dec 4, 2018 21:33:53 GMT
The lastest Programmes and Investment Cttee papers, for 11 December 2018 meeting, include a paper for the new DLR trains. content.tfl.gov.uk/pic-20181211-public-pack.pdfSee page 193 of the papers (page 199 of the pdf). Base order is 43 new trains (33 replace older B90/92 trains and 10 for growth) with options for another 34. Design would be three cars long but walk through as per XR and S Stock designs. There is a network diagram showing possible future service levels if the full fleet was ordered. There are some pretty impressive frequencies shown - 22½ tph on the Stratford International branch for example. What isn't shown are the possible new stations or extension to Thamesmead.
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Post by routew15 on Dec 5, 2018 10:47:00 GMT
Can the vehicles for the DLR really be turned around that quickly? We have not even had a victor for the contract confirmed yet and we are talking about a train on the rails by 2023?
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Post by snoggle on Dec 5, 2018 11:02:18 GMT
Can the vehicles for the DLR really be turned around that quickly? We have not even had a victor for the contract confirmed yet and we are talking about a train on the rails by 2023? I only skim read the paper but it is seeking authority to actually conclude the procurement process and place an order with an identified bidder. Assuming it's placed before the end of 2018 then it gives a supplier 4 years to get the trains built and into service. I am guessing that whoever the supplier is has an established "platform" from which to build the DLR stock around. I wouldn't be shocked to see Stadler win the contract using a version of the train they're designing for Merseyrail. There is also a relatively stable and well understood signalling system which the new trains will work with and TfL have clearly decided how that integration will be handled as there is a call off arrangement with Thales to cover the work. It's also clear that most of the supporting work to enable the new trains to run is defined and some of the early stages like expansion of Beckton depot have already started - e.g. planning permission being sought for the expanded depot.
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Post by ThinLizzy on Dec 5, 2018 17:44:56 GMT
Can the vehicles for the DLR really be turned around that quickly? We have not even had a victor for the contract confirmed yet and we are talking about a train on the rails by 2023? I only skim read the paper but it is seeking authority to actually conclude the procurement process and place an order with an identified bidder. Assuming it's placed before the end of 2018 then it gives a supplier 4 years to get the trains built and into service. I am guessing that whoever the supplier is has an established "platform" from which to build the DLR stock around. I wouldn't be shocked to see Stadler win the contract using a version of the train they're designing for Merseyrail. There is also a relatively stable and well understood signalling system which the new trains will work with and TfL have clearly decided how that integration will be handled as there is a call off arrangement with Thales to cover the work. It's also clear that most of the supporting work to enable the new trains to run is defined and some of the early stages like expansion of Beckton depot have already started - e.g. planning permission being sought for the expanded depot. Site surveys have been going on for a while, all sorts of fluorescent lines have been sprayed on the roadways around the depot as well. Works on the new expanded depot at Beckton are expected to start next year, there's a massive amount of work to be done before the new trains arrive
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