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Post by TB123 on Jun 19, 2023 12:39:09 GMT
I think what the route actually does is more important than the number. Don't see an issue with it being renumbered to W14 If what the route does is important why renumber it! Absolutely nothing wrong with keeping the 549 number. Just causes confusion on the section where both the W14 and 549 run currently. Yes people will get used to the changes but a lot of these recent consultations are changes for changes sake! TfL seems obsessed with sending routes to the same destination via different routes! Woodford Bridge now will have two routes to Walthamstow. You're getting annoyed with semantics😂 Best thing to do is note your feedback in the consultation or to the Bus Planning team. Listening to stakeholder feedback dosen't seem like "change for change sake" to me but each to their own.
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Post by WH241 on Jun 19, 2023 12:42:02 GMT
Will larger buses be able to get around the back roads between South Woodford and Wanstead that the W12 serves? Assuming the revised route serves this section as the maps are not great.
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Post by COBO on Jun 19, 2023 12:49:01 GMT
Will W14’s current 10.8m Enviro 200s be able to get around the new sections or will it be downgraded to smaller buses?
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Post by joefrombow on Jun 19, 2023 12:57:30 GMT
If what the route does is important why renumber it! Absolutely nothing wrong with keeping the 549 number. Just causes confusion on the section where both the W14 and 549 run currently. Yes people will get used to the changes but a lot of these recent consultations are changes for changes sake! TfL seems obsessed with sending routes to the same destination via different routes! Woodford Bridge now will have two routes to Walthamstow. You're getting annoyed with semantics😂 Best thing to do is note your feedback in the consultation or to the Bus Planning team. Listening to stakeholder feedback dosen't seem like "change for change sake" to me but each to their own. Let's have it right the only reason the new "W14" is being called that is to avoid the local guardian newspaper , Essex live and no doubt mylondon and local conservatives jumping on the save the W14 bandwagon and major route being cut headlines .
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Post by vjaska on Jun 19, 2023 13:19:01 GMT
Agree with what's already been said, there's such little resemblance between the current W14 and the new one what's the point of keeping the number just creates unnecessary confusion. I thought the point of the 549 was that its a quiet backwater route, running through rural areas on the periphery of London. I see the W14 will drop to hourly but is much really gained by this reorganisation? That's the thought I've got from those who know the 549 better than me - for me, I only see decline on the W14 if these changes going ahead as I don't think TfL are learning their lessons when it comes to low frequency routes and the dangers of them facing frequency cuts which can affect them badly. I can understand trying to replace the 549 but it feels like a fudge to do it with the W14 - if anything, the W12 looks the better route to do it with as ADH45258 mentioned so ignoring any restructuring of that route that would likely need to take place although looking at max running times, a combined W12 & 549 would be just over 90 minutes which is doable especially if the re-routed section in Walthamstow & Whipps Cross saves a few minutes. That way, the W13 & W14 can still be amended at their southern ends as per the consultation but the W14 would continue to Woodford Bridge and wouldn't drop to hourly and the W12 will remain half hourly, which on the old 549 section might actually attract more people to use the service otherwise then, there really is no point to this.
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Post by rj131 on Jun 19, 2023 13:29:28 GMT
Not really sure why the W14 designation has to continue here. The new W14 is a completely different route. They may aswell call that one 549 and get rid of W14 Agreed, it doesn't even retain 1 mile of its current routeing. And two thirds of that is already on the 549 route. However, this would mean that the 533 is the only 5xx route, and that itself is a temporary route. It does seem they’re trying to get rid of the routes starting with a 5 😂
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Post by ADH45258 on Jun 19, 2023 13:34:31 GMT
Agree with what's already been said, there's such little resemblance between the current W14 and the new one what's the point of keeping the number just creates unnecessary confusion. I thought the point of the 549 was that its a quiet backwater route, running through rural areas on the periphery of London. I see the W14 will drop to hourly but is much really gained by this reorganisation? That's the thought I've got from those who know the 549 better than me - for me, I only see decline on the W14 if these changes going ahead as I don't think TfL are learning their lessons when it comes to low frequency routes and the dangers of them facing frequency cuts which can affect them badly. I can understand trying to replace the 549 but it feels like a fudge to do it with the W14 - if anything, the W12 looks the better route to do it with as ADH45258 mentioned so ignoring any restructuring of that route that would likely need to take place although looking at max running times, a combined W12 & 549 would be just over 90 minutes which is doable especially if the re-routed section in Walthamstow & Whipps Cross saves a few minutes. That way, the W13 & W14 can still be amended at their southern ends as per the consultation but the W14 would continue to Woodford Bridge and wouldn't drop to hourly and the W12 will remain half hourly, which on the old 549 section might actually attract more people to use the service otherwise then, there really is no point to this. Not sure I would actually suggest merging the 549 and W12, as they would require different frequencies and unlikely to be any useful new links created. But I think the 549 and W12 should each be evaluated on its own. The 549 could maybe just extend to Wanstead replacing the W12's side roads here, use shorter buses but a slight increase in frequency. If TFL want to remove the 5** numbers for permament routes, then simply renumber to 449 for example. The W12 should just focus on providing a direct (and more frequent) Walthamstow to South Woodford link, removing the Walthamstow Village routeing and Whipps Cross Hospital loop. Other routes like the W14/W15/W16/W19 would maintain links. Maybe also divert the W19 to Coppermill Lane - and the W12 then operating a core section between Argall Avenue and South Woodford, with options to extend further at either end for new links.
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Post by rj131 on Jun 19, 2023 13:35:23 GMT
Tbh it seems like what they’re doing here is putting in a deliberately convoluted and nonsensical re-numbering system, just so when they release the results, they can resort the numbering to make more sense and say that ‘they listened to the feedback’ and make these changes seem not as bad as they are. I bet that’s what will happen
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Post by WH241 on Jun 19, 2023 13:38:00 GMT
Tbh it seems like what they’re doing here is putting in a deliberately convoluted and nonsensical re-numbering system, just so when they release the results, they can resort the numbering to make more sense and say that ‘they listened to the feedback’ and make these changes seem not as bad as they are. I bet that’s what will happen I think the renumber is similar to the 13 and 16 saga where they are making it look like the W14 is saved.
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Post by WH241 on Jun 19, 2023 13:49:32 GMT
Will larger buses be able to get around the back roads between South Woodford and Wanstead that the W12 serves? Assuming the revised route serves this section as the maps are not great. looking at the maps again the revised W14 would serve the back roads I am referring too but at a lower frequency.
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Post by ADH45258 on Jun 19, 2023 14:01:45 GMT
Looking at how these changes could affect tender results if they go ahead:
The W12 would likely need new electrics regardless, so the operator can then order whichever length will fit around the route. I think at least 9.7m would, but ideally something longer to replace the W14 sections.
Will be interesting to see whether the W14 gets retendered, or if the revised route takes over the 549 contract. If the latter, Sullivan could swap something shorter from the 299 or W9, assuming either of those routes can take a 10.9m MMC. However I could see Sullivan just give up the 549 contract, since it is only a PVR of 1 and quite far from their garage.
The W13 could keep its 17reg MMC, perhaps with the 3x 65reg DMVs from the W14 covering the extension? I could also see the W13 move to LI if retained, especially as it's around the corner from Leyton Asda.
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Post by VMH2537 on Jun 19, 2023 14:20:36 GMT
This isn't looking good as there are cuts being made to services for W12 users, which means the services will be halved. It's especially disappointing to see the direct link between South Woodford and Walthamstow Central being broken. It seems TfL hasn't learned from their previous mistakes when they made cuts and reduced services, as seen with the 497 case. It's a real missed opportunity that they also didn't consider improving the frequency of the 549/W14 for service imporvements. Instead, they opted to keep it with limited service. It feels like the promises made by the Mayor to enhance the services are losing optimism wheather they will deliver some service ecnahtmnents and this includes exploring opportunities and learning from lessons.
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Post by VMH2537 on Jun 19, 2023 14:30:28 GMT
Some thoughts on these proposals: I assume longer vehicles can now be used on the W12, since it will no longer serve Walthamstow Village? At least 9.7m would be useful, considering it replaces much of the W14 which has 10.8m at the moment. However, I'm not sure it really makes sense to attach the W12 to the Woodford Bridge section, since it's quite indirect. I thought this consultation would have been a good opportunity to introduce a direct Walthamstow to South Woodford link. If the revised W14 were to take on the current 549 contract, would Sullivan need to find something shorter to use - not sure if a 10.9m MMC would fit around the backstreets between South Woodford and Wanstead? The W13 extension is generally ok, but a further extension to Stratford City via the 388 could have been quite useful - providing various new links, including better connections to/from Leyton retail park. Overall I think the 549 and W12 could have been worth looking at independently - maybe alongside other routes like the 385, W11 or W15. But the W13 and W14 are probably best left as they are. I suspect the X123 will replace the direct Walthamstow Central to South Woodford link. A consultation for the route is planned around the late Summer, so hopefully we should see more detail on its stops and routings by then
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Post by ADH45258 on Jun 19, 2023 14:37:02 GMT
Some thoughts on these proposals: I assume longer vehicles can now be used on the W12, since it will no longer serve Walthamstow Village? At least 9.7m would be useful, considering it replaces much of the W14 which has 10.8m at the moment. However, I'm not sure it really makes sense to attach the W12 to the Woodford Bridge section, since it's quite indirect. I thought this consultation would have been a good opportunity to introduce a direct Walthamstow to South Woodford link. If the revised W14 were to take on the current 549 contract, would Sullivan need to find something shorter to use - not sure if a 10.9m MMC would fit around the backstreets between South Woodford and Wanstead? The W13 extension is generally ok, but a further extension to Stratford City via the 388 could have been quite useful - providing various new links, including better connections to/from Leyton retail park. Overall I think the 549 and W12 could have been worth looking at independently - maybe alongside other routes like the 385, W11 or W15. But the W13 and W14 are probably best left as they are. I suspect the X123 will replace the direct Walthamstow Central to South Woodford link. A consultation for the route is planned around the late Summer, so hopefully we should see more detail on its stops and routings by then However the 123 doesn't directly serve South Woodford, so the X123 may simply just go direct via the North Circular
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Post by WH241 on Jun 19, 2023 14:53:29 GMT
V interesting. W12 practically turned inside out, the 549 replaced in full with the 4bph W14. Wonder what will happen to the existing 549 contract with Sullivans? The revised W14 will be hourly.
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