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Post by YX10FFN on Oct 30, 2023 18:43:30 GMT
Hmm, not a bad set of changes. Terrible development name but that’s another issue. Again I am surprised TfL aren’t using the 91 extension as an opportunity to curtail it to Aldwych to maintain reliability. This removes the link between Trafalgar Square and Euston/Kings Cross which is well used. No easy route to replace it. In my mind Aldwych is only an effective terminus if there is a major destination before it that passengers can go to, like with the routes approaching from the west.
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Post by southlondon413 on Oct 30, 2023 18:48:47 GMT
Hmm, not a bad set of changes. Terrible development name but that’s another issue. Again I am surprised TfL aren’t using the 91 extension as an opportunity to curtail it to Aldwych to maintain reliability. This removes the link between Trafalgar Square and Euston/Kings Cross which is well used. No easy route to replace it. Hmm that aside Strand is not a particularly fast moving street towards Trafalgar Square. I can see a lot of curtailing in the future.
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Post by yunus on Oct 30, 2023 18:54:44 GMT
Doubt they would go to the trouble of converting the route back to LT! The 91 has its own batch of buses now and can’t see any benefit of converting the route again. I wonder thou if that was being factored into the go ahead needing hybrids for the 476? The 40 and 185 pretty much cater for the 89/147/601 and extra on the 1. Could the 476 convert to LTs?
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Post by VMH2537 on Oct 30, 2023 18:55:05 GMT
Quite a lot to untangle here so I'll provide my views on this:
1. Overall, I'm in in support of extending the 91 to Wood Green given that I believe it will be very useful in giving links to Nag's Head and Crouch End. Of course, the 29's reliving capacity is also included. But the question still remains; Will TfL eventually use this as a justification to amend the 29?
2. It has long been suggested that the 232 can reroute away from Wood Green High Street to relieve congestion in the area. So I'm not surprised by this.
3. It's unfortunate the route 123 is not routed on Lordship Lane via Wood Green as a lost opportunity. This would have established a high travel corridor from one of the busiest in North London between Tottenham High Road and Wood Green, travelling at a combined frequency of 13.5 bph. To this day, I couldn't understand why the 123 had to route via Turnpike Lane before reaching Wood Green.
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Post by redexpress on Oct 30, 2023 20:14:06 GMT
Well this is about as local as it gets for me.
91/N91 - yes please, the 91 has always seemed the obvious route to extend to Heartlands, and has been the aspiration ever since the earliest stage of the project (even before someone came up with that tacky name). Having said that I'm surprised it's actually happening in the current financial climate. Yes it is a fairly big development (and has probably provided some Section 106 cash) but it isn't huge, yet it is getting a high-frequency link to central London including a night route. I was expecting something underwhelming like a diversion of one of the lesser routes in the area, like the 232, but no more than that.
232 - busier than it used to be, but still one of the less busy routes on the High Road, so probably the least worst route to remove. The proposed stops on Mayes Road are not too far from the rear entrance to the Mall so could be useful.
123 - the biggest gripe here is the loss of the round-the-corner link between Westbury Avenue and the High Road. Reading some of the comments on here I think people are too fixated on long-distance links and forget that a large proportion of bus trips are short hops, and that these local links are a vital part of the network. Westbury Avenue is a densely-populated area that always generates a lot of custom for buses. That said, the area has changed a lot lately, with a generally younger population, so maybe this particular link is not as well-used as it once was.
I can't agree with suggestions to divert the 123 via Wood Green to TPL. This would deprive Westbury Avenue of its only link to Tottenham, as well as greatly increasing journey times for people who use the 123 to/from TPL (and there are a lot of those!). Plus it would only be duplicating sections that are already well-served by the 243 and 144.
The other concern would be whether TPL can actually handle the 123 terminating there. The bus station is already too tight for the number of terminating routes, and the 123 is (slightly) more frequent than the 232 which is moving out. I won't be surprised if something gets formally moved out to the West Green Road stand at some point.
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Post by LondonNorthern on Oct 30, 2023 21:53:15 GMT
I wonder whether the 121 would be a better route to terminate at Heartlands, with the 123 remaining to and from Wood Green Station.
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Post by ServerKing on Oct 30, 2023 22:16:21 GMT
Hmm, not a bad set of changes. Terrible development name but that’s another issue. Again I am surprised TfL aren’t using the 91 extension as an opportunity to curtail it to Aldwych to maintain reliability. There is a Heartlands High School on Station Road (just before Alexandra Palace station) so I think the development draws its name from that 91 would do well to switch back to NP if the move goes ahead. Western Road (and turning into it from Mayes Road) may be tricky with poorly timed traffic lights (2 sets right next to each other) especially with the junction with Turnpike Lane / Wightman Rd being a free for all two lanes into 1 affair. Where the 232 would stand, especially if the longer electrics from the 444 escape onto the route would be interesting... I'll guess we'll wait and SEe
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Post by YX10FFN on Oct 30, 2023 23:15:31 GMT
This removes the link between Trafalgar Square and Euston/Kings Cross which is well used. No easy route to replace it. Hmm that aside Strand is not a particularly fast moving street towards Trafalgar Square. I can see a lot of curtailing in the future. It's a radical idea but a surefire way to speed things up along the Strand for buses is to ban taxis from the bus lane. So many empty cabs loiter on the Strand and clog it up. But any changes that slightly infringe on cabbies rights here lead to chaos.
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Post by Busboy105 on Oct 30, 2023 23:22:31 GMT
I wonder whether the 121 would be a better route to terminate at Heartlands, with the 123 remaining to and from Wood Green Station. The 121 is fine as it is. Hopefully with this reroute the 232 won't be as packed
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Post by LondonNorthern on Oct 31, 2023 0:10:07 GMT
I wonder whether the 121 would be a better route to terminate at Heartlands, with the 123 remaining to and from Wood Green Station. The 121 is fine as it is. Hopefully with this reroute the 232 won't be as packed Well people have brought up lost links on the 123 as a result of the cutback to Turnpike Lane so surely the 121 would be a better candidate to cutback given the 329 parallels it from Palmers Green and provides similar links to Enfield Town Centre? Passengers would be able to change onto a 141 or 329 between AD and WN. Would also shorten the 121 slightly and remove it from the traffic hotspot that is Wood Green High Road.
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Post by vjaska on Oct 31, 2023 0:43:46 GMT
The 121 is fine as it is. Hopefully with this reroute the 232 won't be as packed Well people have brought up lost links on the 123 as a result of the cutback to Turnpike Lane so surely the 121 would be a better candidate to cutback given the 329 parallels it from Palmers Green and provides similar links to Enfield Town Centre? Passengers would be able to change onto a 141 or 329 between AD and WN. Would also shorten the 121 slightly and remove it from the traffic hotspot that is Wood Green High Road. TBH, if we had decent transport planners in place, the plan should be to remove traffic from Wood Green High Road rather than remove something like the 121 or 123.
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Post by greenboy on Oct 31, 2023 1:30:20 GMT
One way of keeping the 123 at Wood Green would be to merge the 67 and 329 into one route although they have different frequencies and operators at the moment. The loss of the round the corner Westbury Avenue/High Road link is the only real problem though and TfL probably take the view that people can make alternative arrangements, ie walk, given the distances involved because every journey clearly doesn't matter!
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Post by redexpress on Oct 31, 2023 5:28:57 GMT
Hmm, not a bad set of changes. Terrible development name but that’s another issue. Again I am surprised TfL aren’t using the 91 extension as an opportunity to curtail it to Aldwych to maintain reliability. There is a Heartlands High School on Station Road (just before Alexandra Palace station) so I think the development draws its name from that 91 would do well to switch back to NP if the move goes ahead. Western Road (and turning into it from Mayes Road) may be tricky with poorly timed traffic lights (2 sets right next to each other) especially with the junction with Turnpike Lane / Wightman Rd being a free for all two lanes into 1 affair. Where the 232 would stand, especially if the longer electrics from the 444 escape onto the route would be interesting... I'll guess we'll wait and SEe The school is a recent addition (opened 2010) - it took its name from the proposed development, not the other way round!
I agree that pair of junctions needs looking at if more traffic is going to be funnelled through it.
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Post by redexpress on Oct 31, 2023 5:33:33 GMT
The 121 is fine as it is. Hopefully with this reroute the 232 won't be as packed Well people have brought up lost links on the 123 as a result of the cutback to Turnpike Lane so surely the 121 would be a better candidate to cutback given the 329 parallels it from Palmers Green and provides similar links to Enfield Town Centre? Passengers would be able to change onto a 141 or 329 between AD and WN. Would also shorten the 121 slightly and remove it from the traffic hotspot that is Wood Green High Road. The 121 may not offer much in terms of unique links from Wood Green, but it is vital in helping out with the huge flows between Wood Green and Palmers Green. The 232, being single-deck, does not help as much. The crowds piling onto the northbound 121/141/329 at Wood Green are something else!
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Post by Busboy105 on Oct 31, 2023 5:59:29 GMT
One way of keeping the 123 at Wood Green would be to merge the 67 and 329 into one route although they have different frequencies and operators at the moment. The loss of the round the corner Westbury Avenue/High Road link is the only real problem though and TfL probably take the view that people can make alternative arrangements, ie walk, given the distances involved because every journey clearly doesn't matter! Dalston to Enfield is a long trip especially with the traffic. If you want to extend the 67, you could extend it to North Finchley to help out the 221 which does get packed
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